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Non-EEA spouse to Germany without VISA (Gelesen: 4.366 mal)
KThomsen
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13.03.2017 um 13:10:31
 
Hi, I hope someone can help me out, and hopefully English is fine here.

I am a Danish national, and my wife is from Algeria.
I just got a job offer in Germany (Düsseldorf), and I want to use my EU right to move to Germany with my wife.

Unfortunately we cannot get her a visa in time for the move, so I want to know if anyone here knows about people who got a Schengen visa in Germany when they went to the border control in the Airport?

Yes, I know that most people won't even reach the border control because airlines won't let them board without a visa, but for that I might have found a solution, that could work.

My wife can get a visa to United Emirates (Dubai), and with Lufthansa transfer in Frankfurt Airport. According to this website, a transfer visa is NOT required for her:
http://www.auswaertiges-amt.de/DE/Infoservice/FAQ/VisumFuerD/33-Airporttransitvi...

Can anyone tell me if this "plan" is actually possible? IF we manage to get to Frankfurt Airport, would we be able to use the EU Directive to get into Germany?

Thanks!
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Antwort #1 - 13.03.2017 um 13:57:49
 
If you travel together with her, they must let both of you into the country.
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Antwort #2 - 13.03.2017 um 14:04:37
 
Obst88 schrieb am 13.03.2017 um 13:57:49:
If you travel together with her, they must let both of you into the country.


Thanks for your answer.

Do you know if they require me to have a job already or to have an apartment in Germany? Or can I use my right as a job seeker in EU?
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Antwort #3 - 13.03.2017 um 14:06:18
 
And I got this from Lufthansa (attachment).
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lufthansa.png (15 KB | 146 )
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Antwort #4 - 13.03.2017 um 15:01:46
 
KThomsen schrieb am 13.03.2017 um 14:04:37:
Do you know if they require me to have a job already or to have an apartment in Germany? Or can I use my right as a job seeker in EU?


Don't think a job in germany will be necessary. It's the same situation when a european citizen want to visit the UK together with his spouse, UK must let them in. You will find a lot information about this here: https://eumovement.wordpress.com/2010/08/04/no-visa-but-still-want-to-travel/
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Antwort #5 - 13.03.2017 um 19:16:16
 
KThomsen schrieb am 13.03.2017 um 13:10:31:
Unfortunately we cannot get her a visa in time for the move, so I want to know if anyone here knows about people who got a Schengen visa in Germany when they went to the border control in the Airport?


Hallo,

I do. A lot of them.
Explanation: I am officer of the German Federal Police since > 30 years...
It's called "Ausnahmevisum" (in English language sth. like "Exceptionally Visa").

Zitat:
Yes, I know that most people won't even reach the border control because airlines won't let them board without a visa, but for that I might have found a solution, that could work.

My wife can get a visa to United Emirates (Dubai), and with Lufthansa transfer in Frankfurt Airport. According to this website, a transfer visa is NOT required for her:
http://www.auswaertiges-amt.de/DE/Infoservice/FAQ/VisumFuerD/33-Airporttransitvi....

Can anyone tell me if this "plan" is actually possible?


This way to, let's say "bypass" regular visa restrictions, is known as part of "transit jump off". Working or not working depends of some circumstances:
Does the VAE-Immigration has a departure transit border control in Dubai and if yes, do they care?
Does the carrier (Lufthansa) care, when checking in / boarding in Dubai?
However - in your case it is not illegal.

Zitat:
IF we manage to get to Frankfurt Airport, would we be able to use the EU Directive to get into Germany?


Yes.

But for this point in time and all situations before you should make sure, to explain and to prove your right of free movement.
Have a hard copy in english and german language of the EU-Regulation, important provisions tagged.
Carry your marriage certificate, if possible as original or certified copy, carry your contract of employment.

Be ready to have discussions in worst case.

Regards

Edit: "Thomsen! Das ist Thomsen! Mensch Phillip! Haben sie dich schon wieder rausgejagt?" ("Das Boot", 1981) Zwinkernd
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Auch das Ausländerrecht in Deutschland gründet sich auf gesetzliche Grundlagen und ständige Rechtsprechung - nicht jedoch auf das Bauchgefühl des deutschen oder ausländischen Wutbürgers.
 
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Antwort #6 - 13.03.2017 um 19:49:17
 
T.P.2013 schrieb am 13.03.2017 um 19:16:16:
carry your contract of employment.


Darf ich fragen wieso er den dabei haben muss? Ist es nicht unerheblich ob sie hier nun 3 Tage Urlaub machen oder dauerhaft bleiben möchten?
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Antwort #7 - 13.03.2017 um 20:17:01
 
Muss er nicht.
Aber wenn er schon diesen Weg gehen will und den Vertrag ohnehin hat ...
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„All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing.“ (Edmund Burke)
„Für den Triumph des Bösen reicht es, wenn die Guten nichts tun.“

Auf PN antworte ich nur dann per PN, wenn die Frage wirklich nicht ins Forum paßt.
 
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Antwort #8 - 13.03.2017 um 20:31:07
 
Obst88 schrieb am 13.03.2017 um 19:49:17:
Darf ich fragen wieso er den dabei haben muss? Ist es nicht unerheblich ob sie hier nun 3 Tage Urlaub machen oder dauerhaft bleiben möchten?

Muss er nicht. Habe ich auch nicht als ein Muss bezeichnet.
Das "must have" ist fett unterlegt.
Das "nice to have" macht nur das Leben leichter...
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Auch das Ausländerrecht in Deutschland gründet sich auf gesetzliche Grundlagen und ständige Rechtsprechung - nicht jedoch auf das Bauchgefühl des deutschen oder ausländischen Wutbürgers.
 
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Antwort #9 - 13.03.2017 um 20:58:16
 
Danke für die Aufklärung. Er hatte ja oben gefragt ob es wichtig ist, dass er bereits einen Job und eine Wohnung in Deutschland hat. Ich war der Meinung, dass dies keine Rolle spielt. Da hat mich die Antwort, dass er seinen Arbeitsvertrag mitnehmen soll, etwas irritiert.
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Antwort #10 - 14.03.2017 um 11:01:25
 
T.P.2013 schrieb am 13.03.2017 um 19:16:16:
Hallo,

I do. A lot of them.
Explanation: I am officer of the German Federal Police since > 30 years...
It's called "Ausnahmevisum" (in English language sth. like "Exceptionally Visa").


This way to, let's say "bypass" regular visa restrictions, is known as part of "transit jump off". Working or not working depends of some circumstances:
Does the VAE-Immigration has a departure transit border control in Dubai and if yes, do they care?
Does the carrier (Lufthansa) care, when checking in / boarding in Dubai?
However - in your case it is not illegal.


Yes.

But for this point in time and all situations before you should make sure, to explain and to prove your right of free movement.
Have a hard copy in english and german language of the EU-Regulation, important provisions tagged.
Carry your marriage certificate, if possible as original or certified copy, carry your contract of employment.

Be ready to have discussions in worst case.

Regards

Edit: "Thomsen! Das ist Thomsen! Mensch Phillip! Haben sie dich schon wieder rausgejagt?" ("Das Boot", 1981) Zwinkernd



Hi,

Thank you for your very long and detailed answer.
It's so nice to get some answers from someone with experience or knowledge about this matter.

When it comes to our situation in Tunis Airport (We will leave from Tunisia and fly to Dubai), I have cleared the situation with Lufthansa, and they follow the visa regulations that is issued by the German Federal Foreign Office. And I have that from Lufthansa, and will bring that as documentation if they should cause any issues.

In regards to the passport control in Tunis, I am pretty sure that they should either know about this, since a lot of people from Tunisia and Algeria travels to Dubai to work. And I can't imagine that they will require the transit visa from her, since she doesn't need one.
In case they do, I will politely give them the proof and discuss it with them, and eventually ask for a person with more stripes on the shoulder if necessary. Again, with the proof/documents and highlighted our rights, I am positive that we should be able to get on the plane to Frankfurt. She will have the visa to Dubai, which is all they should care about in Tunis.

I do have a employment contract in Denmark. And I will discuss with my workplace if I can get transferred to their german department in Düsseldorf. They are registered as a company in Germany, so I will be employed in Germany, and not Denmark. (even though it shouldn't matter as far as I know?).

Of course I have an original marriage certificate (in French) but it is currently on it's way to Denmark where I will get it translated to English, Danish and German by authorised translators, and also legalised by the Danish ministry of Foreign Affair. The original certificate is stamped and legalised by the Tunisian ministries and the Danish General Consulate in Tunis.

And of course, I have already printed the EU Rights Guideline Handbook and highlighted our rights AND I will print out the EU Directive 2004/38/EC in English and German and highlight everything necessary.

So I hope that all these documents will be enough for them to let us in on an "exceptionally visa" Smiley

We are in contact with the german embassy in Algeria to talk about getting a visa before doing this. But the Irish embassy who's been dealing with our application to Ireland, just told us TODAY that they have applications laying around that are 2 years old. We are NOT ready to wait 2 years for an official visa. But if the embassy in Algeria can confirm that it won't take more than 15-30 days for them to deal with it there, then we might try a last time the "right way". if not, we're gonna move on with this "Transit jump-off"-plan.

So thank you for helping us out! Smiley

And maybe I should check up on that "Das Boot" Zwinkernd
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Antwort #11 - 14.03.2017 um 13:21:00
 
KThomsen schrieb am 14.03.2017 um 11:01:25:
We are in contact with the german embassy in Algeria to talk about getting a visa before doing this. But the Irish embassy who's been dealing with our application to Ireland, just told us TODAY that they have applications laying around that are 2 years old. We are NOT ready to wait 2 years for an official visa. But if the embassy in Algeria can confirm that it won't take more than 15-30 days for them to deal with it there, then we might try a last time the "right way". if not, we're gonna move on with this "Transit jump-off"-plan.


If she would apply for a EU Visa and not a national Visa she don't have to wait two years, its two weeks. But for this you have to live abroad (in another EU country) before. So the Transit Jump off is your best bet.
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Antwort #12 - 14.03.2017 um 15:03:43
 
Obst88 schrieb am 14.03.2017 um 13:21:00:
If she would apply for a EU Visa and not a national Visa she don't have to wait two years, its two weeks. But for this you have to live abroad (in another EU country) before. So the Transit Jump off is your best bet.


INIS (Irish immigration service) writes on their website that you can apply for a EU visa if I (the EU citizen) submit a statement letter where I confirm that she will accompany me, with the application. So it should be dealt with in those 2 weeks, as you say. But, unfortunately, the Embassy of Ireland in Abu Dhabi seems to give a sh.... about this! My wife contacted them today, and they told her that they have those visa applications laying around that are 2 years old!
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Antwort #13 - 14.03.2017 um 16:18:39
 
The situation in Ireland has nothing to do with schengen countries.
The problem is all irish visa applications get processed in Dublin and Ireland was overrun from Brits who want to go the Surinder Singh route for their none EU family members before the Brexit. Visa processing times from 1 to 2 years are pretty common nowadays.
If you want to go to germany with your wife let her apply for a visa for a family member of a eu citizen at the german embassy. It should take 15 days max.
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Antwort #14 - 14.03.2017 um 17:22:01
 
mgb schrieb am 14.03.2017 um 16:18:39:
The situation in Ireland has nothing to do with schengen countries.
The problem is all irish visa applications get processed in Dublin and Ireland was overrun from Brits who want to go the Surinder Singh route for their none EU family members before the Brexit. Visa processing times from 1 to 2 years are pretty common nowadays.
If you want to go to germany with your wife let her apply for a visa for a family member of a eu citizen at the german embassy. It should take 15 days max.


I am aware of what's going on with Ireland recently. Especially with people from China, Pakistan and so on. It's crazy. And that's also why we've decided to move on. And worst case, we can always move on to Ireland when she has her residence card in Germany.

I just don't get why it is a requirement that she JOINS me (according to the German Embassy in Algeria), when the EU Directive 2004/38/EC clearly states in Article 3.1, 6.1 and 6.2 that she can accompany me and that there is no conditions or formalities the first 3 months. If I lived there, she would join me - not accompany me.

Article 5 just states that she must have a visa to enter the EU Member State. But Article 2 and 6, in my opinion, says that she should be able to accompany me.

If I include a legalised statement letter + Flight ticket bookings that shows we are travelling together, it should be proof that I am accompanying her.

I have contacted Europe Direct on E-mail and phone, SOLVIT on e-mail and waiting for them to get back to me.
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Antwort #15 - 14.03.2017 um 17:55:23
 
The freedom of movement directive is not appicable, if the person is abusing the directive and wants to circumvent national immigration laws. So you have to prove, that you and your wife have honest intentions.

So yes, if your wifes accompanies you, than she can easily get the entry visa. But she has to prove to be your wife. Thats why you need the marriage certificate, at best legalized for denmark and maybe germany.

If you land together in Germany it is hard to refuse her the entry, because only if you both married just for the residencecard, she could be refused. Now prove that as border patrol.... You could even say, that you just want to visit Germany and go back to algeria or whatever. The visa could not be refused. Heck... you cant be even asked what the purpose of your travel is, because it would be a discrimination on citizenship, because the borderl patrol doesnt have the right to ask this to a german citizen.

But we have in german a saying: Wie man in den Wald ruft so schallt es hinaus.

Meaning in your case, that you should make the decision for the border patrol easy. Come with valid papers and maybe a hotel reservation and have a reasonable talk. And if they ask, why you land in Düsseldorf, than you show at best a paper that you are now working for the Düsseldorf-Branch etc..  Then the border patrol will not think twice about giving the visa.

E.g. get a E-104 form from your health insurance so that you maybe can transit faster to german health care system. Even if you will be in the obligatory health insurance this would be a paper which would prove your intention for using the freedom of movement.
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Antwort #16 - 14.03.2017 um 20:07:27
 
Aras schrieb am 14.03.2017 um 17:55:23:
The freedom of movement directive is not appicable, if the person is abusing the directive and wants to circumvent national immigration laws. So you have to prove, that you and your wife have honest intentions.

So yes, if your wifes accompanies you, than she can easily get the entry visa. But she has to prove to be your wife. Thats why you need the marriage certificate, at best legalized for denmark and maybe germany.

If you land together in Germany it is hard to refuse her the entry, because only if you both married just for the residencecard, she could be refused. Now prove that as border patrol.... You could even say, that you just want to visit Germany and go back to algeria or whatever. The visa could not be refused. Heck... you cant be even asked what the purpose of your travel is, because it would be a discrimination on citizenship, because the borderl patrol doesnt have the right to ask this to a german citizen.

But we have in german a saying: Wie man in den Wald ruft so schallt es hinaus.

Meaning in your case, that you should make the decision for the border patrol easy. Come with valid papers and maybe a hotel reservation and have a reasonable talk. And if they ask, why you land in Düsseldorf, than you show at best a paper that you are now working for the Düsseldorf-Branch etc..  Then the border patrol will not think twice about giving the visa.

E.g. get a E-104 form from your health insurance so that you maybe can transit faster to german health care system. Even if you will be in the obligatory health insurance this would be a paper which would prove your intention for using the freedom of movement.


Well, in this case we don't have any intention to circumvent any immigration laws. We are simply interested in using them in every single way we can - and if that means to "buy a ticket to Dubai and act like we're going there" and then do a transit jump-off, but still enter the country 100% legally, then that is what we're gonna do!

We've been together since 2013, and married for 6 months now, and we're sick and tired of living 3000km apart. The Danish minister of Immigration just posted a photo today on her Facebook page, with a biiiiiig cake, to celebrate that they, in 1,5 year, has accomplished to make 50 new immigration laws that will make it harder for people to get into Denmark.

So our only hope right now is the EU Directive. And we are tired of waiting for embassies handling applications or giving us false informations because they "have their own way of understanding the visa rules". So now we might try to apply for a visa at the German embassy, but if they cause too much trouble, this is a 1500 EUR gamble that we are ready to try!

And my work have a german department, but I haven't talked to them yet about moving there, since it's not 100% yet. But if we decide to do it, hopefully they are willing to let me move to the german department and give me a contract before we try and enter Germany.

That E-104 form - can I get that online? Or where can I find it?
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Antwort #17 - 14.03.2017 um 20:50:58
 
Zitat:
For more information about the E104 form, please contact Udbetaling Danmark, tel.: 70128081


http://ias.au.dk/uic/show/artikel/the-e104-form-documents-danish-health-care-cov...

Do you have enough money to stay for a few months in germany? In worst case you take vacation and/or unpaid free time for 6 month. You just need enough money for the health insurance (costs for you in case of being unpaid is about 180 €/month and your wife is covered too), for a appartment in a really cheap area (e.g. Mecklenburg-Vorpommern  Laut lachend) and enough money for food etc..

After 6 month you go back to denmark and live happily ever after.
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Antwort #18 - 14.03.2017 um 20:54:41
 
@KThomsen

Point to german Freizügigkeitsgesetz section 2 subsection (5).
The version in english is available here:
https://www.gesetze-im-internet.de/englisch_freiz_gg_eu/englisch_freiz_gg_eu.htm...

Additionally point to Verwaltungsvorschrift zum Freizügigkeitsgesetz 2.5.1
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Antwort #19 - 15.03.2017 um 13:14:27
 
Aras schrieb am 14.03.2017 um 20:50:58:
http://ias.au.dk/uic/show/artikel/the-e104-form-documents-danish-health-care-cov...

Do you have enough money to stay for a few months in germany? In worst case you take vacation and/or unpaid free time for 6 month. You just need enough money for the health insurance (costs for you in case of being unpaid is about 180 €/month and your wife is covered too), for a appartment in a really cheap area (e.g. Mecklenburg-Vorpommern  Laut lachend) and enough money for food etc..

After 6 month you go back to denmark and live happily ever after.


Thanks for the information! Zwinkernd

Well, we are not interested in going back to Denmark. So I plan to work and live in Germany for at least 5 years. Smiley Eventually we will move to Ireland when she has a residence card, in case the language barrier makes it too difficult for her to get a job in Germany.

But I will check out the information provided. Smiley

Thanks!!
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